(bonus points if you get the reference –ed.)

Two men, two opinions.  Only one will stand.  NeoSapian and I had a long discussion the other day about our differing viewpoints on the Rock Band franchise.  We decided to turn it into a full-blown point/counterpoint for the site.  The resulting dissection and bodyparts follow:

The Weapons in Question.

It’s time for a dialogue on Rock Band, your cons vs. my pros.  That… sounds odd.. but nonetheless.

Alright now, I saw your comments on my review for Beatles: Rock Band and I think we had this out, and there is nowhere better than the blog to do this thing!  The way I see it, you’re just being cantankerous regarding your reasoning for RB being dead to you and here’s why:
1.  I heard nary a peep out of you when they did it the FIRST time with RB: AC/DC.  I even bought the disc at GameStop (screw those guys) and then ripped and returned it.  I still have yet to officially play more than two of those songs, btw.  What was I *thinking*?  (I’m a vocalist.)
2.  I heard nary a peep out of you when they collected a bunch of dlc and repackaged them as ‘track packs’ in retail stores.  It’s the *exact same thing* as what you’re complaining about!
3.  They have already stated that Green Day is NOT getting it’s own retail release, rather that it will be a ‘Themed Track Pack’ ala Pearl Jam’s release.
4.  As long as they make it dlc compatible for those of us with RB2, who cares?
5. I happen to know your family LOVES the Going Country track packs (as you keep purchasing them/downloading them (remember I can see that!)), so aren’t you being a TAD hypocritical?
6. Lego Rock Band, which I guess I get from a marketing standpoint but think it’s totally asinine from a consumer standpoint, even allows you to rip the songs for use with Rock Band (and vice versa; you can use RB dlc with Lego RB).  Where is your animosity there?
7.  So, to date, the ONLY game that is ‘separate’ is Beatles: RB, which you have clearly stated you do not care for… so why do you feel that is the death knell for the franchise when every other incarnation is compatible/importable?

The gauntlet has been thrown down.  I don’t know what you’re going to do with a slightly dented gauntlet, but there it is.  On the ground.  Your move, sir.

Neo: I will concede that RB isn’t dead yet, however I do believe the course
they are on leads to a death sooner than necessary.  So, the gauntlet I
will pick up, take to the blacksmith and pay 200g to repair it and
smacketh your arguments to the ground!  Onward to counterpoints!

1.  If you will recall I WAS against AC/DC coming out as a standalone
product vice DLC or a track pack (more on those later).  I did not
believe in the model then, however at that point it was a one off event.
Also, unlike Beatles RB, AC/DC came with a stripped down version of an
older RB engine.  RB 2 was already out, and the songs were exportable.
I agree on the vocalist thing though.  As the only adult that sings, I
hate the guitarist who HAVE to play the AC/DC songs.

2. Ahh, I am sure you are baiting me for something here, but they are
NOT the same thing.  The track packs are an alternative for folks who do
not have internet connections to still get select DLC or simply do not
want to purchase it via DLC.  There are no game enhancements, and even
the “exclusive” tracks only stay that way for so long before going into
the Playstation Store.  These are significantly different from Beatles
RB in almost every way.

3. On the Green Day item, I will have to admit misinformation on my
part.  From what I remembered reading it was more like the Beatles
release.  Last I had read we didn’t know what the Pearl Jam release was
going to be, so if there are details on that I will have to look into
that.  Regardless, even if they are just like the AC/DC pack, this is
exactly the thing that GH was doing that got them shot down.  As the
egotistical artist demand that they are too important to have a DLC
release it will drive folks away accelerating their death.  The only
thread of salvation being if the songs are importable.  But if that is
the case, then they should just be put out as DLC.  I would bet the vast
majority of people will simply import it into RB2 and never look at the
disk again.

4.  See above.  That is the only thread of redemption for these upcoming
“special projects”.  However if they are importable, why aren’t they
just DLC?  Because the band/artist has an overinflated opinion of
themselves?  If there are legal issues then we end up with another
Beatles on our hands.

5. Oh come now, we are both DLC hounds and have been since nearly day
one. (I held out just a little bit based on my inherent dislike of
microtransacitons)  There is no comparisons between DLC, add-in game
content, and Beatles RB!  Remember I said if the Beatles had been a DLC
add-on to say RB3, I would have almost no issue with it.  That assumes
there were no enhanced game features available to only the add-on.  My
main issue with the game is that it should have been RB3, with new
features and enhancements available for all relevant game content.  I
would love to have harmony available for the Queen pack and some of the
other songs.  I cannot see how one could compare a “plug-in” like DLC
and a completely independent and new version of the core product.  Also
it sets a horrible precedent.  I love Queen, but they don’t deserve
their own version of the game.

6. I’m kinda ambivalent with Lego RB.  Is that hypocritical?  Let me
‘splain.  No there is too much.  Let me sum up.  I was originally hugely
excited about it being a fan of the Traveler’s Tales Lego games.  As
time went on I became less so, but more because of other things going on
rather than LRB in and of itself.  The tracks are sharable, which
inherently makes it better than the Beatles offering, and as far as I
know gameplay is identical to RB2.  As a parent, I curtail the song
selections when my kids play, and for non active gamer parents I can see
how it is an attractive alternative.  Again I would have liked to see
the “kid friendly” filter done as an enhancement to RB2 or RB3.  Lastly,
it is not locked to one music group/artist.  I don’t remember the price
point for the game, but I can appreciate what they were trying to do.
Taken in isolation of the other releases it would not present a problem.
On the scale of causing RB death, this one is a blue on the black of
larger issues.

7.  While they are importable, the simple perception of every artist
under the sun getting a special release will:

A: Remind gamers of GH and the reasons they fell out of favor
B: be more expensive for consumers, DLC packs are generally less
expensive
C: Cause confusion in the consumer base (not people like you and
I) with all the different “versions”
D: Ultimately lead to the iCarley disk version of the game,
which Nostradamus predicted would cause the end of existence

In the end, it really comes to this: perceptions and confusion.  If
someone like myself can be confused on if Green Day is a track pack or a
full up game, then the average consumer has NO idea.  They will just see
RB going down the same path as GH except at least GH had a numbered
release mixed in there.  Mix this confusion, with the utter lack of RB
to take the field as The Evil Megazord Corporation falters in the music
game business is unfortunate.  Lastly RB2 was only really what RB1 was
envisioned to be.  The only additional growth of the series occurred in
a 1 off game that cannot be integrated into the whole.  All of these
factors together point to a faltering rather than a championing of the
music game genre.  I love my Rock Bands, and I am saddened by what I
see.

Balth Responds: I pull out my white glove, smack it against your counterpoints’ face and remind it that it is uncouth and uncivilized.  Here’s why:

I still completely disagree with your assessment of the franchise’s path.  Although I DO agree that these ‘side-discs’ are a waste of money for the company, and is a path of diminishing returns, I do not believe it will ‘put the nail in the coffin’ due to strong product positioning, continuing appeal with continuous release of new and relevant DLC and the establishment of a platform to push that content.

1. I will concede that I may actually remember you being against AC/DC, but only to the point of a “Meh.  Dumb” as opposed to the tirades of late.

2.  Well, to be clear, they *aren’t* quite the same things.  AC/DC is an example of this, and none of those tracks are available for purchase off the store.  Same with Lego Rock Band.  Most of the ‘track packs’ are, indeed, just gathering of DLC for offline people/people who do not wish to purchase online, but I think that technically, AC/DC and LRB are nothing more than track packs, as well.

3.  Most industry informants I have seen quoted on the Green Day matter state that it will be a ‘themed download pack’ like Pearl Jam did with the reissue of ‘Ten’.  IE, it will not appear differently than any other DLC.  At the very MOST, some analysts think it will be ala AC/DC; and if this is the case, will be rippable.  I, again, agree this is not the way to go in MY mind, but if Harmonix can secure more/better songs through this method, it honestly doesn’t affect the consumer.  It is an optional purchase; and only those interested in it are going to actively seek it out for purchase.  AND as long as we don’t get ten of them a year (which Harmonix has so far been good about not doing), then I cannot really see a problem with it.  If they don’t sell well, they would drop the formula anyways.  It is a logical business conclusion.

4. Honestly, I don’t see a ton of these going the direction of the Beatles, mostly because most bands don’t have that kind of leverage, in all honesty.  U2, perhaps, since they own the rights to all their songs.  But F’n Green Day?  Those boys are sellout material through and through.  The record companies own their souls.  I doubt we’ll see many legal issues in the franchise’s future like the unique ones encompassing Apple Records.

5. I will offer one simple question per your point about Rock Band 3 and Beatles: Rock Band.  What would your opinion be if when RB3 is announced, you *could* import the Beatles: Rock Band DLC tracks?  I still think this will be impossible unless they include all the resources from B:RB, but let’s just say hypothetically for a moment, that it was possible.  Would your animosity be sated?

6. I understand your position on this; but I still maintain that it’s ok to have releases like these *once in a while,* since Harmonix is still attempting to keep the ‘platform’ working by allowing these releases to be ripped and imported into the RB franchise.  I truly believe the kicker will be how that franchise evolves with RB3.  If all the DLC from the first two games/spinoffs/side-projects don’t work with RB3, guess what I *won’t* be getting.  That’s right, RB3.

7.  I agree with every point, and your summary.  I believe that the unprojected marketing message (which is sad) that has always been the unspoken undercurrent of Guitar Hero vs. Rock Band boils down to this:  Guitar Hero is about the popularity contest, whereas Rock Band is actually about expanding your musical palette.  Despite whatever you think about that point, from a business model, Harmonix has managed to deliver consistent weekly downloadable content (whether you appreciate the content being delivered is another matter for another discussion) at a desirable price point, and Treyarch has not.  This is reflected in the literal billions of dollars made in dlc for RB.  They said from the beginning that they were building a platform for music, rather than a game.  I believe they have delivered that platform, and although these ‘side projects’ like Beatles’ Rock Band may be bumps in the road, I think that the company exploring their options with it aren’t death knells for the product and the genre.  I do also agree that TOO many of them would be; but I truly believe Beatles’ Rock Band to be a one-time occurrence, and that since it underperformed even with great critical praise, they identify it as a model that isn’t sustainable moving forward.

Your final rebuttals/thoughts?

Neo pauses for a moment, considering, then begins to speak.  Well met good sir.  Our swords have clashed in honorable combat, and I
believe it is time for a respectful salute and departure from the field,
all vital organs intact.  It seems while we agree on many of the core
subjects, it is primarily our outlooks that are different.  As such, I
present my closing thoughts, continuing the point by point format.

1. You are correct, it was more of a “meh” at the time.  Unfortunately
meh+meh+meh+grr = Blabbering blatherskite!  That is how I got to where I
am now.  Continual adds to the left hand side of the equation will cause
the death of the RB franchise.

2.  I think we are agreeing here, mostly.  I would contend that AC/DC is
not a track pack, but that *is* how most people utilized it.  I think
LRB may be another discussion.  That is a full functioning platform,
feeding off of the same DLC as the RB proper series (though filtered
obviously).  I may just have to pick it up simply to better develop my
thoughts on it.  Also, like Unplugged’s “exclusives” I think LRB’s will
eventually be DLC.

3.  If Green Day (or any other band for that matter, including the
Beatles) is a “greatest hits” DLC I have no problem with it.  At all.
This is the strength, as you noted, of Harmonix and the RB family;
continual, well executed expansion of the library.  If it becomes an
AC/DC thing it gets to the “meh” category and if it were (as I
originally though) to be more of a Beatles thing it would get to
“Grr/hate”.  The core platform with the DLC has been a great success for
the company, and presented an easy to understand and support
methodology.  The further they deviate from that, and give the
appearance of becoming more like GH, the closer they come to the series’
death.

4.  On this I agree, it is not the way it should be and not many bands
should have that kind of leverage.  Especially with the advent of the RB
Network (unfortunately 360 only), it would seem that model would be
undercut.  I also have to admit, with Green day NOT being a Beatles like
product, a bit of wind is taken from my original argument.

5.  I don’t know.  Honestly, not really, but it would do a bit to salve
my burns from this.

6.  Agree 100% with this.  I really understand why they did it, and if
it were the only example my predictions of “death” would be quite
unfounded.  If GH hadn’t gone down in a flaming ball of overflow of
products, I probably wouldn’t have as much heartburn with RB’s perceived
course.  Again perception is everything, and I just plead with Harmonix
to keep that little axiom in mind.

7.  Here we are, marching arm in arm toward victory.  I don’t want RB to
end.  I don’t want Harmonix to bend over to support egotistical bands,
or their labels with “special” projects.  The end isn’t here yet, and as
long as Harmonix presents the right message, and continues to present
additional content through their proven model they should enjoy a
prosperous future.  I do believe they need to stem the appearance of
having multiple GH type projects on the horizon, and seriously need to
make an announcement for RB3.

Overall I think there is a slippery slope ahead, but treading carefully
and smart marketing choices will allow RB to move forward triumphant.
Since the “Evil Megazord Company” seems to no longer care about music
games since their last product only made a bajillion buckets of money
instead of a gajillion buckets, Harmonix is in prime territory as long
as they avoid the mistakes of their competition.  On the other hand,
unclear product announcements, the perception of every top 40 band
getting special treatment and a perceived lack of progression to the
series are issues EA and Harmonix need to address NOW.

The real question:  What do YOU think?